Diahann Carroll:
The Turner Classic
Movies Interview
Posted by Richard Harland Smith on February 3, 2012
Our friend Steve Ryfle takes the wheel today in candid conversation with film and TV actress (and Turner Classic Movies fan) Diahann Carroll, which he offers to us as a Movie Morlocks exclusive…
Diahann Carroll (b. 1935) will always be thought of, first and foremost, as a groundbreaking actress on television, having been the first African-American woman to topline a network TV series in a non-stereotypical role, in the dramedy JULIA (1968-71, NBC). She also was the first African-American diva on a primetime soap, chewing much scenery as Dominique Deveraux in DYNASTY (1981-1989, ABC) in the 1980s. In a career spanning six decades, she’s done one-offs and recurring parts in innumerable series, hosted network variety specials, worked the talk show circuit. Carroll has done it all, from THE STAR WARS HOLIDAY SPECIAL (1978) to GREY’S ANATOMY (2005–, ABC); she was and is a television fixture.
Carroll has had an equally impressive, if less prolific, film career. She came from New York to Hollywood in 1954 and landed a small part in Otto Preminger’s CARMEN JONES (1954), the first of three pictures she would make with the hot-headed filmmaker. Preminger also gave Carroll a supporting part in his much-maligned, never-on-video adaptation of PORGY AND BESS (1959), in which she sang the Gershwin classic “Summertime,” and a starring role as a teacher confronting racist land barons in the Deep South in the Civil Rights-era misfire HURRY SUNDOWN (1967). But the film that showcased her acting ability more than any other was John Berry’s CLAUDINE (1974), which recently aired on TCM. The film saw this most sophisticated of ladies convincingly portraying a welfare mother struggling to raise her kids in Harlem. It was an Oscar-nominated performance and something of a crowning achievement, though her career continues today, nearly 40 years later.
Diahann Carroll spoke to Turner Classic Movies in 2009 during a publicity tour for her book THE LEGS ARE THE LAST TO GO. This is the first time this interview has been published.
STEVE RYFLE: Who were your inspirations on the big screen?
DIAHANN CARROLL: I loved the work of Bette Davis and I loved the work of Katharine Hepburn. There weren’t many black actresses for one to study. But those actresses, every time I saw them—and sometimes I’d see the movie three times or four times—each time there was something new I could gain from their work. They were wonderful on screen.
SR: You were about 19 when you came out to Hollywood. How did you end up auditioning for Otto Preminger for the part in CARMEN JONES?
DC: He was auditioning everyone in the world who was a Black American and I flew out to audition. I met him because it was set up by my agent.
SR: Did you know anything about his now-legendary temper?
DC: I knew that he was supposed to be very, very mean. (Laughs.) But you see, I had heard that about my dad, and I knew a great deal about men who liked the reputation of being mean. As you say to them, “Oh stop it!” they recognize that someone has, as we used to say in the old neighborhood, pulled their coat. And as soon as Otto started screaming and yelling on the set, I thought, “Oh my God, he needs all of this in order to work.” He creates this atmosphere around him so that he can barrel in, and no one dares speak in his presence while he’s working. Which isn’t the way really to go about it, but what he’s trying to create on the set, that can be a wonderful atmosphere in which to create a scene—a tense, dramatic scene, or even a comedic scene. But I liked him very much and we got along. I had heard about him and was not worried about it, because I thought if you do your work and do what you’re supposed to do, if Otto says something you don’t like you can go back to the hotel, pack your bags, and go home. And he saw that in my face immediately.
SR: You wrote wonderfully about your audition for Preminger. He asked you to read for the lead role of Carmen and you did a scene with James Edwards in the Harry Belafonte role, and he was painting your toenails, which made you very uncomfortable. Preminger sensed your discomfort and tried to psych you out by asking, “Whoever told you were sexy?” I love the way you handled the situation; it ended up becoming an icebreaker between the two of you.
DC: That’s right, and I said, “No one ever told me that I was sexy!” Which made Otto laugh. It was one of many icebreakers for Otto and myself. He allowed me to sit very near him on the set when we were doing CARMEN JONES. I had lots of questions, and he didn’t mind that. I think it was during a time when he saw how really unsophisticated and naive I was. I had only been away from my mom and dad for a short period of time. Pedicures were not a part of my life, and I didn’t want him to know that. So we came out of that smiling.
But there’s another story I wanted to tell you, where Otto and I became, really, buddies when we did a film together called HURRY SUNDOWN (1967). I had spoken to him in New York and I had given him a recommendation for a hairdresser who could do every kind of hair known to man. And he became very upset. “I don’t allow anyone to tell me who to hire.” I said I’m not telling you, I’m asking you to do that and make sure we’re all taken care of equally while we’re working. So of course the day arrived when we were working on the set, and Otto was up on the crane, shooting. There was heavy, heavy mist in the air, and as we’re shooting this scene, he screams, “Hairdresser! Hairdresser!” And this very nice young man came over to me and he said, “I don’t know what to do, because the rain is affecting your hair and your hair is changing.” And I said, “If you have a problem with my hair, you’ll have to talk to Mr. Preminger.” So, he walked off the set.
Otto was furious. He yelled, “Where are you going? You’re fired!” Finally he came down off the crane, and he said to me, “What’s going on?” I said, “Remember in New York, when you said you wouldn’t allow anyone to tell you who to hire or fire? I was not asking you to hire anyone in particular, I was just asking that you find someone who could do every kind of hair, not just straight hair.” He said, “Is that what this is all about?” And he said, “Maybe I should call this a wrap [for the day] because it’s practically raining.” And I said yes, and if it rains my hair is going to change every 10 minutes. He said, “Maybe I should get a wig for you.” And I said yes, you can do that. So he called a wrap and we walked away, practically arm in arm. He said, “This is going to be a very expensive day for me.” Then later when we returned home after the filming I went to his house a few times for dinner. He was married to a very lovely lady, and we all became very good friends. Otto was the one who eventually said to me, “I’ve got to talk to you about your money.” He said, “I do hope that you sign your own checks. There’s no one that should sign your checks for you.” That was a very important piece of information that Otto Preminger gave me.
SR: At the time you came to Hollywood, there were so few African American actors doing roles that were substantial. Sidney Poitier, Harry Belafonte, Ruby Dee, Dorothy Dandridge and a few more. There weren’t many good roles for black actors at that time.
DC: There were none. There were none. And if a role did emerge, all the managers and agents—everybody knew about it immediately because there were no films where Black Americans were working.
SR: Was there camaraderie among actors and actresses, or was the competition too fierce for that?
DC: I must say that I found there was camaraderie among all actors because the business of being unemployed hits everyone from time to time, even Marlon Brando. So I found great camaraderie. They were definitely people who understood our plight because they had to make adjustments because of their own plight.
SR: I know you attended the High School of Music and Art in New York, and later studied with Lee Strasberg. Who most helped you shaped your acting craft?
DC: You cannot study with Lee Strasberg without learning something. You may not take all of it away with you but you’re going to find new areas that you’re going to benefit from. I studied with several people, and eventually I had a drama coach, recommended to me by Harry Belafonte. I worked with her for years and she almost moved into my home in New York when we were doing CLAUDINE, because we worked practically around the clock on that film. She was so fabulous at taking who I am, and who the character was, and finding areas in there that I could meld one into the other in a positive way. I work with her from time to time even today. It’s good to have someone else’s point of view about a character.
SR: Were you able to get to know Dorothy Dandridge at all?
DC: Yes, I did. She was a very beautiful woman, a lovely woman, but she seemed unhappy.
SR: The tension between her and Otto Preminger on-set is legendary.
DC: I found it to be very real, and very high strung. Yes, it was a very difficult shoot. But she was just such a beautiful creature, standing there being very firm in her footsteps about her character of Carmen.
SR: You’re written about the importance of projecting a positive image on screen, rather than just doing your job. When did the content of a film or TV project become more important to you than simply landing a role?
DC: I think most of us come into the business with those hopes or dreams. Black or white, we want to do something that has some important texture to it. I did not want to do either CARMEN JONES or PORGY AND BESS. I think I make that clear in the book. I had seen musicals about the Black community, particularly about the poor and uneducated. PORGY AND BESS had beautiful music but I never liked the story. The music was so beautiful it made those films work, and the excitement of seeing beautiful Black people in color, but the story was not necessary, really.
SR: A lot of actors who appeared in PORGY AND BESS had tremendous misgivings about it.
DC: Yes, that’s true. It seemed unnecessary. We’d seen that same damn story 50 times. And it didn’t accomplish anything really, except to make our children feel that that was a primary part of our history, our legacy, and that’s not information we wanted to give to our children.
SR: You’ve written about an incident during the making of PORGY AND BESS, and I hoped you might talk about it a little. You were wearing a headscarf, and Otto Preminger told you, “Take that thing off. I can’t see you.” And Sam Goldwyn, the producer, got very upset about this; his concept of the film, and what it should represent, seemed rooted in another era.
DC: Well I don’t know about that. I really don’t know. I remained rather removed from the texture of the story, such as it was. And I did know that bandanas were very much a part of the daily life there. The decision to tell me to take off the bandana was of course made by my director. And when Sam Goldwyn sent for me, I explained to him that that was not my decision. He was really such a tyrant. I looked at him and said, “This is almost like making a movie, right here in this office.” We were saying a few words to each other, and that’s when I said to him, “Please, stop yelling at me, Mr. Goldwyn.” My father does not yell at me, why would I allow a business associate to yell at me? And luckily Preminger walked in at that moment. That’s with whom he should have had the conversation. There was no reason for him to send for any of the actors; the actors wouldn’t do anything other than what the director asked us to do. I think he knew that, but it was just a grandstand, very childish.
SR: I understand you first me Sidney Poitier while making PORGY AND BESS, and you write wonderfully about the meeting. You talked about the way he would walk into a room and people were drawn to him.
DC: He’s quite dignified, and I think a lot of that comes from his upbringing in the West Indies. And so many people who are from the islands have a very quiet dignity that is very special, and Sidney has that, in addition to the fact that as a young man he was breathtakingly beautiful. Age has done well by him, it really has. And when he walked into the room, everybody went, “Aaaah! There he is!” I was very pleased, and I am very pleased, that Sidney and I had a chance to know each other and I had a chance to be around him and observe the way he operated, going about building his career. He was very ambitious; his attitude about what he was doing was very strong. And he really had this innate pleasant part of him that could not be denied.
SR: Your relationship with Sidney lasted about nine years, and it coincided with the pinnacle of his fame. You write very candidly about the personal side of your relationship, but did you ever talk with him about the characters he played? He seemed to carry a tremendous burden, as if every role he played was interpreted as a political statement.
DC: That was a part of his life; this was not something he carried out only in his work. That’s who Sidney was; he was very much a part of the political scene at that time. As a matter of fact, in his own quiet way I bet he still is. But more than anything, I was very attracted to this very dignified young man, who learned how to speak English by listening to the radio. He was a very hard-working actor, and it was my joy to be able to share that part of my life with him.
SR: You co-starred with Sidney, as well as Paul Newman, in Martin Ritt’s PARIS BLUES (1961), a rather lovely little film.
DC: I think you’re right, it is a lovely little movie. Unfortunately I don’t know how pertinent it is to today, but I do like the characters that were drawn for that film, and I think we all had an immediate connection, a camaraderie, because we were all pretty much in the same boat in our personal lives at that time. I took a great deal away from watching Paul Newman, and his wife as well, a great talent. He was really quite a gentleman, and a kind man.
SR: You won a Tony for Best Actress in a Musical in 1963, for playing the lead in the Broadway play NO STRINGS. It was an inter-racial romance between your character and Richard Kiley’s But you were passed over for Nancy Kwan when a film version was in the works a few years later. The film was never made.
DC: Yes that’s right. I couldn’t believe that I would not play (the part) in the film. I was called by a columnist for the New York Post, who said he would like to interview me about that, and it was on the second page of the newspaper. I was very happy to do the article because I received so many calls; “You must feel jilted.” I felt that if they had cast a Black woman in the film version then I would have been able to take that a little more easily. But once we leave the color of my skin and we go to someone who is a different color, then the statement that I thought we were trying to make with NO STRINGS has been changed. Anyway, I have been told that decision was one of the reasons the film was never made.
SR: You testified at government hearings in the 1960s about the lack of roles and jobs for African-Americans in the industry.
DC: Yes I did. And that’s why I received a call from Hal Kanter, who created JULIA. And he explained that he’d gone to an NAACP luncheon and the speaker said that it was the responsibility of everyone in the room, particularly every creative person in the room, to do whatever they could possibly do to make sure that this barrier was lifted, changed, pushed in a direction that was more positive. So he went home and wrote JULIA. So yes, there was constant conversation in every community about the situation. And if it wasn’t there, we tried very hard to bring it to a new table, a new area, a new community, so that everyone was talking about the fact that we had to integrate television and film. And that’s during my most aware period, during the sixties. And I think it was my most active period, during the sixties, maybe the early seventies.
SR: HURRY SUNDOWN was described by Otto Preminger as a pro-integration film. Interesting that it was shot in the Deep South, in Klan country.
DC: It certainly was Klan country! I don’t know if you’ve read about the filming in New Orleans, but we were warned that the Klan was coming to our set, and thank God we had the protection of the Teamsters. They brought all these cars to our rescue—”Get in immediately! Let’s leave the area because we’ve been threatened!” Some of us were lying on the floor of the car. It was a horrible, horrible experience. So we went through difficult racism when we were in New Orleans. Eventually the production learned that they had to take much greater precaution for our safety. It was really a very difficult time.
SR: Robert Hooks, who co-starred with you in that film, recalled that one day when the cast and crew were driving back to their hotel, shots were fired at their cars.
DC: I think that may have been the same incident.
SR: And when the African-American members of the cast went into town and couldn’t get seated in a restaurant, things like that.
DC: Yes, and we asked for one of the producers to be with us at all times, not just the protection of the Teamsters or police or whatever. And Otto did that. And then reservations were made by the production company, so we could eat.
SR: Do you remember shooting the “slap scene” with Jane Fonda? I understand that she didn’t want to hit you hard enough.
DC: Yes. And I didn’t want to hit her, either! Very often in the evening we were all together, so it was very difficult to meet on the set the next morning and think of one another as “that white woman” or “that black woman.” Particularly in light of the things we had discussed the night before. (Laughs) But I said to Jane, “I’ll steel myself. You’ve gotta give me a whack!” So we did it four or five times and finally she gave me a whack. I don’t remember now what it was all about…
SR: Well, your character is slapping some sense into her. I think of that scene as a parallel to the much more famous one in IN THE HEAT OF THE NIGHT, where Sidney Poitier slaps the white aristocrat. You can look at those two scenes as a turning point in the way African-Americans were portrayed on film, that they were finally standing up for themselves in a very direct and physical way.
DC: Yes. The thing I felt was my most important contribution to integrating the film and television industry was a film called CLAUDINE. My work was probably the best I’ve done to date, other than probably AGNES OF GOD on Broadway [in 1982-83]. The work is why people want to work with you, particularly if the project has a good script and is directed well. But the work is what breaks down the barriers, I think, in the long run.
SR: I understand you were friends with Diana Sands, who was originally cast as Claudine, from childhood. She is somebody who, because she died so young, has unfortunately not been recognized as much as she should be. She was amazing.
DC: Yes, we went to elementary school together. She was extraordinary. She did a production called THE OWL AND THE PUSSYCAT on Broadway, and I guess all of us saw it about a half dozen times each, just to watch her work. I thought she would have been given the film [Barbra Streisand played the role of Dora in the 1970 film version], but it didn’t happen. But those of us who were around know that that was some of the best work being done, by Diana Sands. She was quite a personality, and I knew that she was especially gifted. We all did. It’s very hard to define what there is about someone like that. You know, the moment you saw Brando you knew there was something extraordinary about that young man. Diana was the same.
SR: When she had to leave the production of CLAUDINE due to her health, she insisted that the role go to you.
DC: Yes she did. She said, “You must send for her,” and (the producers) said, “We don’t really want to do that,” but she insisted. Diana and I had worked together on my show, JULIA. My producer didn’t know who she was, which I couldn’t believe, but I said, “Send for her.” And we did four or five episodes together, and she was just a joy, a shot of B-12 for the writing staff, the director. It was wonderful having her around. Hal Kanter told me, “She’s a very gifted young lady. I really admire that you recommended her. What makes you think you are so important to me, young lady, that I won’t put Diana Sands as my star?” And I said, “Because that would be a different show!” (Laughs) “If you want to do that, I think you should write a show for her.” So he did. I said, “Don’t tell me anything about it, because I’ll be jealous. I’ll probably end up hating both of you, because I know it will be quite successful.” (Laughs)
SR: Did they film a pilot? What was it called?
DC: They did. I don’t remember what it was called. It didn’t quite work.
SR: It seems every African American actress in Hollywood auditioned for the role of Julia.
DC: I think every Black actress in the United States auditioned for JULIA.
SR: JULIA is tame by today’s standards, but it’s interesting how controversial it was at the time to have a Black woman starring in her own show.
DC: Yes. Listening today to the stories that separated us from the norm—it’s embarrassing, because Julia was a middle class woman, raising her son alone, working in an aeronautic plant, and had nothing to do with servitude. The Black community was very aware of how long they had put up with so many films that really only dealt with the Black community in terms of actors that were playing servants. And this brought to light, I suppose, that given the right scripts and the right cast—our ratings were excellent for a very long time—I think that was part of what was controversial. And a woman living alone, raising a child was a concept that had not been seen on film or on television. Her husband was killed in Vietnam. I was raised around the Julias of the country, and that’s why I connected so with her. I’m horribly middle class (Laughs) and Julia was too. But yes, it had its groundbreaking aspects, absolutely.
SR: It’s interesting that you say you’re “horribly middle class,” because I don’t think many people would perceive you that way.
DC: You know something, I don’t know and I don’t care. We’re always putting name tags on things. I live the life I enjoy.
SR: You made one movie with Jim Brown, who could be a very intimidating presence, THE SPLIT (1968). What was it like working with him?
DC: Unusual. That’s the only word I can think of. I don’t think I ever worked with an actor like Jim Brown before. But I did like what he did on screen.
SR: Getting back to CLAUDINE for a moment, it’s a wonderful part and a lovely movie. What made you want to do this part so badly?
DC: Well, the range of it was something that had not been asked of me. I had not been asked to do a film with that kind of range for my character. And that’s always a treat for any actor. And the opportunity to work with James Earl Jones I just could not resist.
SR: You’ve written about filming your love scene with James Earl Jones, and you mention that many actresses didn’t want to do those kinds of scenes at the time, but for the two of you it was an icebreaker.
DC: Yes, I think that’s why the director set up our schedule in that manner. Because the very first day we met was our first scene in bed together. And James is a real actor—he wants to be exactly on the page, so he was nude! I wore some sort of bathing suit. But he did say one of the loveliest things I’ve ever heard from a fellow actor. The scene was quite a long scene, and at the end of the day he said, “Miss Carroll, let me say this to you. All day we’ve been working on this scene together and I never once thought of you as Diahann Carroll, not for one moment.” I cannot thank him enough for that. That’s incredible. I have to get rid of her as often as I possibly can, in order to do my work away from singing in nightclubs, television shows, so on and so forth. And it’s a big struggle with me to know where that line is drawn when I’m acting. It’s foremost in my mind, constantly. So it was important for him to say that to me, it meant a great deal.
SR: Thanks so very much for spending this time with us.
DC: Thank you. It’s been very interesting. By the way, I love Turner Classic Movies. I have a television that stays on Turner Classic Movies. It’s just a way of life that I cannot give up. I have to see old movies for the lighting, the makeup, as well as the scripts.
SR: I call it the free film school channel.
DC: That’s exactly right (Laughs).
SR: If I didn’t have to work for a living, I’d sit there all day, watching movies.
DC: I find that I’m very grateful when I have a cold. It’s a good excuse. (Laughs) I can very easily go from movie to movie. Sometimes I even have popcorn (Laughs).
SR: Thanks again.
DC: It’s been a joy to talk to you. Thank you very much.
Interview copyright Steve Ryfle, 2009.
